[Leonor Palazzo]

Hi Emma,

Her paediatrician was not concerned with her weight at all so we are very relieved. I guess she just needs to feed at night at the moment and there is not much we can do about it.

I continue to feed her in a dimly lit quite room and I think she is getting a bit longer feeds but it is hard to tell. I wish she could get her daily calories during the day now, but it’s ok. We’ll see how it evolves. She is constantly sucking on her fingers so I never know when she is hungry haha. She even stops feeding *many* times to suck on her fingers so…..

Thank you for the schedule. We’ll try to implement it and see how it goes.

Leonor

[Leonor Palazzo]

Hi Emma,

Thank you for all the advice for the feeds. I will definitely follow them. I actually just checked and the slowing in her weight gain coincides with the moment I stopped nursing her to sleep at night. This was one of my concerns at the time. Because she used to eat so much before finally falling asleep. Then I forgot about this and thought that she would compensate and eat more during the other feeds. But it looks like she didn’t really do that…

It doesn’t feel right to start to nurse to sleep again now that she sleeps so well in her bed… I don’t really know what to think of this. Is it something you have seen before?

We will meet the pediatrician next week, so I’ll ask him as well.

Yes, it would be interesting to know what kind of schedule she could have for her naps. She usually sleeps longer naps for the 2 first ones and a shorter 3d one, as you mentioned.

Yesterday we tried to cap her last nap because it was getting too close to her bedtime and we actually didn’t manage to wake her up! We opened the blinds, touched and talked to her but that didn’t do anything. Should we just pick her up?? What do you do?

Leonor

[Leonor Palazzo]

Hi Emma!

We just weighed her and she is not gaining weight as much lately. She has dropped a little under her curve between month 5 and 6, gaining only 270 g in the last month. So I really do think my supply has suffered a bit unfortunately…

The night wakes didn’t coincide with her learning to roll over. Yes, the last nap is usually shorter while the two first ones are longer. Thank you for the advice for the naps. Do you think it is beneficial to get closer to a nap schedule now? Do you mind explaining the benefits?

What I meant by the night feeds getting bigger is that she will drink more if I offer both breasts than if I only offer one. I tried giving only one breast the last two nights to see if she would be happy with that (in an attempt to not get her used to eating a lot at night, and before knowing she had not gained so much weight). The first night worked but the second she couldn’t go back to sleep after only one but did fall back to sleep after she had both sides. Sometimes she takes a while to fall back asleep as well.

Yes, I tried feeding her in a dark room but it didn’t seem to change much. The feed was not much longer. I think she stops when it is “empty” but keeps trying for more without getting any.

It has been going much better with the settling lately so that’s nice. I actually do already follow the tips you mentioned there and it really helps.

The “wave” from the book is a sleep training method that they recommend doing after 5 months. They recommend the settling pyramid before babies turning 5 months and the wave after. But I’m not super interested in trying, I was just curious in case you knew about it and recommend sleep training after a certain age.

Best,

Leonor

[Leonor Palazzo]

Hi Emma,

Thank you so much.

I tried extending her wake windows quite a bit at a certain point but she seems to be happy with 105 minute wake windows at the moment, and not much longer than that. She wakes up between 6 and 7 am and has 3 naps per day. We make sure her last nap does not extend beyond 5:15pm as we put her down for the night between 6:45pm and 7pm. But usually her last nap will end earlier than that. Anywhere between 3:30pm and 5pm. If her last nap ends this early we try to get a super short resetting nap in the carrier so she is not awake for too long during her last wake window. The times of her naps vary quite a bit still as she will often sleep for 1h-1h30 for some of them but sometimes only 35-40 minutes as well.

I do share the room with her but I make sure I am super quite and I don’t think I have woken her when I go to bed. Most of her wakes are later in the night, although she did wake up around 10pm 3 times, but 2 of them were before I entered the room.

Something else that I am wondering about the nights is that I have always just offered one breast at a time at night and recently offered both as I am worried the supply might decrease if one breast is not getting emptied for 12 hours straight. But maybe I am creating the problem as the night feeds are starting to get bigger…? How do you manage that? Should I be concerned about the supply? I noticed that the first times she slept the whole night, my breasts were about to explode in the morning but after a few nights they didn’t feel as full anymore. So I guess, I am producing less? Should I go back to offering just one side per waking?

About the settling, I am not even sure why she won’t fall asleep on her own sometimes. It is not like she is crying a lot when I go in the room. Sometimes a little but she will be calm most of the times as I put her down at the end of the nap routine. It is just that sometimes she will start crying when she tries to go to sleep and just doesn’t manage for some reason. I am just guessing it could be overtiredness but maybe it is something else entirely?

Another thing is that we read the Happy Sleeper by Heather Turgeon and Julie Wright where they write about the settling pyramid. I was wondering if you would advise, as they do, to go over to the wave at some point or is it not necessary? How long should we expect to be using the pyramid to settle her? I know every baby is different of course, but I am just curious. I don’t really want to do it but I wonder if it would be helpful sometimes.

Best,

Leonor

[Leonor Palazzo]

Hi Emma,

We have made a lot of progress and our little one has grown so much since I last wrote. She will be 6 months old in a few days. She falls asleep independently in her own bed regularly and has slept for the whole night several times. We are truly impressed when it all goes this well. She was sleeping with 0 or 1 waking at night for about two weeks but has started to wake up 2 and 3 times again the last days. I don’t really know what is causing it and how to handle that… When she started sleeping the whole night it happened very suddenly, going from 3 feeds to zero quite suddenly. I wonder if my milk supply might have suffered from it. I am exclusively breastfeeding. I have noticed she drinks for very short times during the day lately for some reason. Anyway, I don’t know how to tell why she wakes up even though my gut tells me that if she would eat enough during the day she would sleep the whole night every night now.

Another question I have is that she will fall asleep by herself many times but not always. I suspect she still cries a lot and needs a lot of help when she is overtired but I am not sure if she even is overtired or what causes it. How do you handle that? Should we just continue with the pyramid until she manages to fall asleep independently even when overtired? She is also in the process of learning to roll in all directions, meaning she most often sleeps on her tummy but can’t really go back to her back it seems, and one side is easier than the other.

Best,

Leonor

• This reply was modified 10 months, 3 weeks ago by  Leonor Palazzo.

[Leonor Palazzo]

Hi Emma!

We have tried the settling pyramid for the first nap of the day for a few days. We didn’t try for bedtime as we weren’t exactly sure of when her bedtime is (we have had some days where it was more around 7-7:30pm lately). Not sure it was a smart move anymore though.

She hasn’t fallen asleep in her bed unfortunately. What happens is that I do the routine than lay her in her crib. Then she just lays there happy without understanding that it is where she should sleep. She smiles, coos and moves around, gradually getting overtired. After 5 minutes, I pick her up and hold her like she is used to in the wrap, then she will start to try to fall asleep, with her complaining cries. Should I let her stay in the crib and wait for her to cry there? What if the wake window becomes way too long?

Then, once she cries and I need to pick her up, the problem is that she will just cry continuously straight until the point where she falls asleep. There is no calm period where I could put her down calm and awake. Should I put her back in bed even if she is still crying? Or not pick her up at all? Something else?

The way it’s been now is that she will fall asleep in my arms. Then I try to transfer her. She will sleep for 5 minutes at most after the transfer, sleeping a total of 10 min max. And then I don’t really know what to do. She is clearly very tired still but it is hard to get her back to sleep.

Also, when we try this, for how long is it reasonable to try? She doesn’t settle down easily so each time she starts falling asleep in my arms it has taken 5-10 minutes to reach that point, making it a bit hard to put her down then, risking to have to start all over again and never getting her to fall asleep in bed anyways…

Leonor

[Leonor Palazzo]

Hi again,

I have a short update already 🙂

She has just fallen asleep for her first nap today. I tried to go
after 1.5 hour and she started crying when I started the nap routine. I
decided to wait a little longer this time and tried again after a 2
hour wake window when she was clearly tired. I went outside for a walk and after 15 minutes she fell asleep without a single cry. I just saw as she gradually closed her eyes and fell asleep peacefully. What a relief. Both that she
can still fall asleep outside and that it was just a timing issue. So
her first wake window was 2 hours 15 min. She has always had rather long wake windows without showing any signs of overtiredness. Maybe that’s ok? What do you think?

Best,

Leonor

[Leonor Palazzo]

Hi Emma,

Interesting! I didn’t even know that dropping the last nap was a thing. We have now followed your suggestions for a week and we have noticed some changes!

Here is the sleep schedule of the last days:

18/05:
7:08 wake-up
09:04 – 10:30 01:26
12:10 – 12:41 00:31
13:58 – 15:30 01:31
16:56 – 17:30 00:33
20:18 bedtime

night sleep durations: 2:47 – 00:53 – 01:47 – 01:43 – 2:18

19/05:
7:20 wake-up
09:13 – 11:45 02:32
13:45 – 14:13 00:28
15:46 – 16:04 00:18
17:30 – 18:03 00:32
20:39 bedtime

night: 00:26 – 02:03 – 02:42 – 01:08 – 02:14

20/05:
7:02 wake-up
08:44 – 11:28 02:44
13:11 – 13:42 00:31
15:26 – 15:57 00:31
17:37 – 18:09 00:32
21:12 bedtime

night: 02:47 – 01:39 – 02:02 – 00:15 – 00:57 – 01:08

21/05:
7:39 wake-up
09:22 – 12:07 02:45
13:50 – 14:31 00:41
16:05 – 16:28 00:23
18:01 – 18:28 00:27
20:26 bedtime

night: 00:41 – 02:20 – 02:05 – 02:40 – 01:38

22/05:
07:32 wake-up
09:10 – 10:21 01:11
12:34 – 13:05 00:31 (we were outside, she took very long to fall asleep)
15:10 – 17:00 01:50 (same)
18:56 – 19:23 00:27
22:17 bedtime

night: 00:26 – 01:31 – 03:39 – 02:30

23/05:
07:15 wake-up
08:58 – 11:24 02:26
13:11 – 13:50 00:39
15:31 – 16:10 00:39
17:58 – 18:19 00:21
20:13 bedtime

night: 00:55 – 01:16 – 01:48 – 02:49 – 02:40

24/05:
07:00 wake-up
08:48 – 10:15 01:26
11:59 – 12:54 00:55
14:42 – 15:09 00:27
16:57 – 17:33 00:36
19:51 bedtime

night: 00:27 – 02:14 – 03:09 – 02:43 – 01:09 – 00:35

25/05:
07:49 wake-up
09:24 – 10:11 00:47
11:44 – 13:16 01:31
15:01 – 15:40 00:39
17:17 – 17:58 00:40
20:19 bedtime

night: 00:28 – 01:16 – 03:52 – 02:58 – 01:20

26/05:
7:30 wake-up
09:29 – 10:00 00:32
11:45 – 12:38 00:54
14:24 – 15:42 01:18
18:54 bedtime

night: 00:39 – 01:07 – 00:50 – 01:03 – 03:50 – 00:56 – 01:43

(The night sleep durations are approximate but off by 15 min at most as I fall asleep myself…)

It seems that her bedtime is possibly rather between 8pm and 8:30pm now. What do you think?

We tried dropping the last nap yesterday 26/05 as she was still not asleep by 6 pm. I am not sure it was good or bad… It shifted her bedtime much earlier though. But she was calm and happy for the last wake period and fell easily asleep. But I am not sure we should do this. What do you think?

She sometimes starts the night with a short 30-40 min long sleep and after that she sleeps for a longer stretch. Is this something that is expected or does it mean anything? Can it depend on the length of the last wake window? The days she slept directly for longer, the last wake window was almost 3 hours.

She has been sleeping for longer stretches at night again lately as you can see. It was rarely over 2 hours at once before. I have been trying to feed her more during the day as well. No matter the cause, I am now not sure any more if her sleep cycles truly have matured or if it was something else… Also the length of her cycles is very clearly 30 minutes, at least during the day as she either wakes then or stirs. Does this indicate if she has newborn or mature sleep cycles?

As you can see, the length of her first nap varies quite a bit still so there is no real predictability to the whole day in that sense.

About the wake windows, it has been working ok but has become harder and harder to get her to sleep for her naps lately. Looking back at how I did before, the wake windows varied between 1 and 2 hours, often depending on the length of the previous nap. I don’t remember it to be as difficult as now when I did it that way, following her cues rather than trying to get 1.5 hour each time. Should we ratger do it that way?

About the nap routine: we have now done all her naps starting in the bedroom in the wrap. We have been trying to implement the settling pyramid a little in the wrap for the naps lately, trying to get her to fall asleep while we are not moving at least. We notice that she is more and more sensitive to her surroundings and would probably sleep better (if she could) in the dark and quite bedroom rather than on us in the house. What would be the best way to gradually transition from the wrap to the bed? She is extremely difficult to put down asleep unfortunately…

Also, we tried 3 times to take a nap in the wrap while walking outside like we used to and it didn’t work… It seems that she really got used to the new routine! But, we still need to be able to take her outside and get her to sleep! She won’t nap in the bassinet pram but the wrap had always worked. Maybe we should try to take one nap a day on a walk outside?

Best,

Leonor

[Leonor Palazzo]

Hi Emma!

A quick question 🙂

Do you have a recommendation for the last nap of the day? Very often she starts to cry a lot as soon as we enter the room and she understands she needs to sleep for the last nap. We cannot really pinpoint if we take her too early or too late. She usually shows some tired signs before but they are not as clear as in the morning. Should the wake window be a little shorter before the last nap or a bit longer than the rest? Or should we just stick to the 1.5 hour? And if it takes a long time (15-25 minutes) for her to fall asleep does it indicate that it was too early? (It doesn’t always though.)

Best,

Leonor

[Leonor Palazzo]

Yes, it all sounds very good. Thank you for clarifying and explaining how to go about the last nap. We’ll do all this and I’ll come back to you with an update in a few days. Have a nice week!

Leonor

[Leonor Palazzo]

Haha, yes, I use a tracking app so it wasn’t hard to write everything down 🙂

Thank you, yes it makes sense to wait a little and see if we get a better idea of her rhythm first. I have some questions to your suggestions that I wrote below.

• Wake her up every morning between 7:00–7:30am.

Yes, sounds good

• Offer her first nap of the day at 9:00am.

Yes, good idea

• Offer her a nap after 1.5 hours of awake time.

Yes. I am getting better and better at timing her naps the last days. I try to offer a nap as soon as I see some tired signs. It seems to be after 1.5 hours indeed, sometimes 2 hours max. She is exactly 14 weeks old now.

• Cap her naps at 1.5 hours.

Do you really believe we need to do this? I am sorry to question it. It is just that every time we have had to wake her up before it really wasn’t fun for anybody involved. Also, her daytime naps average at 4.5 hours. Is it too much? She isn’t awake much at night, just wakes up often but falls right back asleep with my help. I have also noticed looking back that every time she has had a really good night with really long stretches of sleep she actually had really long naps during the day. It seems like good sleep during the day encourages good sleep at night… What if we make sure we don’t move when she is in the wrap in between cycles, so we don’t help her link them?

• If she’s still asleep at 7:30pm, wake her up.

Sounds good. About the last nap of the day, when would you say we should offer her a nap at the latest? Can we still start a nap at 6pm or 6:30pm or 7pm? What would be the limit and should we gradually change it? How would we know?

• Create a short nap routine before placing her in the wrap.

Yes, I have actually already started with this for her naps the last two days and she falls asleep in the wrap in the bedroom. 🙂

• Consider tweaking the bedtime routine so the feed happens at the start of the routine.

I have tried two nights now but I still nursed her to sleep because this is the only way I know how when she is in her sleep sack. Also, she eats so much before falling asleep. I don’t want her to eat less and be hungry sooner… Any tips?

I am glad you are with us for this journey, I feel so much more hopeful now that we have a plan and your support. It means a lot. Thank you!

Leonor

[Leonor Palazzo]

Hello Emma,

Thank you for your reply. Absolutely, I am more than happy to answer all the questions!

1. Does she have a consistent wake-up time? If so, what time and is it fairly regular?
   Not exactly but my goal is to have a consistent wake-up at 7:30. It
   happens that we oversleep until 8:00 or 8:30 at the latest. These are
   her wake-up times of the last 14 days (from 12/05 going backwards):

   7:02
   8:00
   7:24
   8:35
   7:15
   7:45
   7:25
   8:12
   7:25
   7:30
   7:15
   7:16
   6:40
   5:49

2. Are you able to follow a wake-feed-play-sleep pattern during the day? Yes,
   this is the case for most of the day. Although once we are after
   16:00-17:00 it becomes more challenging to get her to sleep and I
   sometimes feed her more then. She probably gets her “last nap” while
   feeding I suppose, dozing off as she needs… I am also hoping she won’t
   wake up as much during the night if she eats more in the evening…
3. What time is bedtime, and is it consistent (within about 30 minutes each night)? There
   is absolutely no bedtime. I don’t see how we should do this. Sometimes,
   her last nap will end at 18:00 or 19:00, sometimes at 16:00. When she
   is tired past 18:00 I go to the bedroom with her and feed her till she
   falls asleep. But she will effectively start her night sleep anywhere
   between 18:00 and 22:00. And sometimes with a couple of false starts as
   well. Here are the bedtimes of the last 14 days (when she actually fell
   asleep, not the false start):

   22:35
   22:09
   18:31
   19:30
   21:41
   21:34
   21:40
   23:02
   21:23
   21:43
   21:22
   19:18
   20:54
   19:17

4. Does she use a pacifier? Not
   really. I don’t try often. If I do, she plays with it a bit but I have
   to hold it and put it back in her mouth constantly. She seems to like it
   though and each time she has fallen asleep in her bed I used it a
   little at the beginning… Don’t know if it helped or not.
5. Do you have a pre-nap routine when she sleeps in the wrap? If so, what does it look like? Yes.
   I put on the wrap in front of her. I go upstairs with her and change
   her nappy. I put her in the wrap. We leave the house and take the same
   15 minute walk around the lake. I can really see now how she is waiting
   for me to exit the house before she starts to relax (or cry) knowing it
   is time to sleep. I have done this inside the house before but it took
   always much longer for her to fall asleep. I don’t know if it is the
   fresh air or the regularity of the walking but she is usually asleep in
   5-10 minutes when I walk outside. I usually just walk, and talk to her
   if she starts crying. Sometimes a little shushing if she starts to
   scream a lot. No patting. Maybe some rubbing her back. Her dad does a
   lot of rubbing her back.
6. When you go for walks during nap time, is this every nap? I’m trying
   to understand if she currently needs movement (walking, bouncing) to
   fall asleep. Yes, it is every nap and I am pretty certain it is the movement that does it.
7. What’s your bedtime routine like? Could you walk me through it? We
   change her nappy, go in the bedroom, put her sleep sack while playing
   the same tune, close the blinds, and I feed her to sleep. Sometimes on
   the breastfeeding pillow, transferring her to her crib when she is in
   deep sleep or I breastfeed side-lying and either transfer her or let her
   sleep there, depending on the time.
8. When she naps in the crib, does she wear a swaddle or sleeping bag? (I’m assuming she’s not swaddled during co-sleeping?) We
   haven’t managed to have her take naps in her crib yet unfortunately.
   But swaddling didn’t work with her, she has a sleeping bag at night.
9. Can you describe her sleep environment? Is the crib in a room that’s dark, cool, and free from sudden loud noises? Yes,
   the room is pretty dark, between 18 and 22°C and silent. But when she
   sleeps in the wrap we are usually sitting down in bright day light in a
   quite environment, but not super silent, moving occasionally.
10. You mentioned 3-4 naps daily, with one lasting 2-4 hours. Could you give me the typical timing and duration of each nap? It
    is all over the place lately. I don’t really know how to summarize it,
    maybe you can find a pattern? These are the last 14 days:

12/05:

09:03 – 09:35 32 min
11:17 – 13:05 1h48
14:49 – 15:25 36 min
17:40 – 19:23 1h43

11/05:

10:12 – 12:22 2h09

14:38 – 16:09 1h31

18:19 – 18:40 21 min

21:04 – 21:21 17 min false start

21:42 – 21:56 13 min false start

10/05:

10:08 – 13:43 3h34

15:58 – 16:40 42 min

09/05:

09:40 – 10:05 25 min

12:36 – 13:17 41 min
14:15 – 17:10 2h55
19:30 – 20:05 35 min while nursing

08/05:

10:21 – 12:12 1h51

13:53 – 14:03 10 min
15:03 – 17:51 2h47
20:50 – 21:01 11 min false start
21:17 – 21:26 9 min false start

07/05:

10:49 – 11:27 38 min

12:35 – 15:16 2h41
17:56 – 18:23 27 min
20:35 – 21:06 31 min false start

06/05:

09:42 – 11:20 1h38
13:17 – 16:03 2h46
18:22 – 18:37 15 min
20:33 – 20:53 19 min false start

05/05:

08:58 – 10:25 1h27
10:59 – 11:35 36 min while nursing
13:22 – 16:17 2h55
18:44 – 18:59 14 min while nursing

04/05:

09:14 – 10:06 51 min
11:27 – 12:57 1h30
14:05 – 14:51 45 min
16:11 – 16:44 33 min
19:05 – 19:27 22 min

03/05:

10:18 – 12:55 2h37
14:50 – 15:15 25 min while nursing
15:42 – 16:35 53 min
18:26 – 18:47 21 min
20:16 – 20:35 18 min

02/05:

09:20 – 12:57 3h37
15:15 – 15:48 33 min
17:59 – 18:33 34 min
20:32 – 21:08 36 min false start

01/05:

09:13 – 10:08 55 min
11:31 – 12:11 40 min
13:35 – 14:30 55 min
16:28 – 16:47 18 min

30/04:

08:49 – 11:54 3h05
14:02 – 14:42 40 min
18:09 – 18:40 30 min
19:56 – 20:32 35 min false start

29/04:

08:42 – 12:27 3h45
14:01 – 15:00 59 min
16:32 – 17:32 1h

I agree that we need a very gradual approach. We tried the settling pyramid for all her naps and bedtime yesterday. It was a disaster. She screamed like I had never heard her scream before. We gave up after an hour at bedtime. Even getting her to fall asleep in her dad’s arms didn’t work. Never seen her this agitated and desperate.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 1 month ago by  Leonor Palazzo.
• This reply was modified 1 year, 1 month ago by  Leonor Palazzo.

[Leonor Palazzo]

Here comes a little update already. I have tried twice for the first and second naps and she slept less than 20 minutes both times. She woke up when I tried to transfer her the second time. It looks like she scans her surroundings many times during the first phase of her cycle, opening her eyes.

It didn’t work to put her in her crib though as she screamed directly and I picked her up. During the first try I put her down again each time she calmed down but she would directly scream again. The second time I did not put her down again as she took extremely long to calm down. She fell asleep in my arms both times while I was standing still and shushing.

It seems like such a big step to go from sleeping in the sling to the bed. I am afraid it is too scary for her and she is just going to get a bad association with the whole process. Do you think I should just stick with it or try something more gradual? Is it worth it to put her in the bed when she calms down or should we first be happy if she falls asleep horizontally while we hold her still? It is always extremely difficult to transfer her though…

She is used to falling asleep in the sling while I take a walk outside.

I hope it helps to get a better picture of how it goes. Let me know if this is too much information.

Best,

Leonor

[Leonor Palazzo]

Hi Emma,

Absolutely, thank you. We had 2 successful naps where she fell asleep in her crib out of 10 attempts! 🙂 It looks like she is learning to self-sooth.

I have 2 questions:

– What I do now is that I try the pyramid for the first nap and call it quits if she is not asleep after 15-20 minutes (starting from when she cries). Is this a good duration? It feels like if she hasn’t fallen asleep after 20 minutes and is still crying she won’t manage this time.

– She just turned 4 months 🙂 What wake window do you recommend for this age? She seems to still need 1h30 in the morning and a bit longer as the day progresses. But it is tricky. Some days are different.

Leonor