[Holly Doerges]

Thank you for your insight, yes I absolutely understand what you are saying.

I have been trying to stretch her last wake window, and it may be helping, however, still trying to work out all the bumps along the way.

Mostly I’ve been trying to give her the most time awake as possible and it’s helping, 1 out of the last 3 nights she actually slept from 2000 to 0200. So that’s really good news. I’ve been also working on setting her down drowsy but awake for bed time, which is really difficult for Zoey. Twice we had some success but I did lay on the floor next to her crib. Now, I’m just trying to maintain drowsy but awake, leave the room. The frequency of wake ups is down, and the intensity of resistance to crib is slightly better. When she wakes up at 2-3 am she gets a bottle and back into crib after holding her for only 30 minutes (which is better than not at all). The 4 am wake up is still ongoing but one of the nights she went back into her crib at 445 and woke up at 0530. It’s just so difficult to get her back to crib in the early mornings despite having another feeding offered. And nap time is still a struggle, I’m actually afraid of her not having a long enough nap if I just lay her down. I try drowsy but awake for the first nap of the day with no success. She gets so upset stands and screams and cry, I end up holding her to make sure she actually naps. When I have put her in the crib asleep after a struggle due to trying drowsy but awake she only sleeps for 30 minutes. Then that messes up the whole rest of the day.

I know it’s a little counter productive to always rely on contact naps, because to learn to link sleep cycles she really does need to practice falling asleep in her crib. I’m trying to do my best to figure it out day by day. My husband and I thank you so much for your feedback and knowledge. We would be way more lost without your videos and help, so thank you so much!!

If there is anything else you recommend trying for her we are willing to do so gladly. We are working on the last plan we discussed to also phase out the rocking and it’s working so far. We are still trying to figure out the 2 nap day vs 3 nap day, it seems like 2 is better but it just depends on what time she wakes up from that second nap.

Thank you again

Holly Doerges

[Holly Doerges]

Emma,

Yes that sounds great! The only issue is that I think I already messed it up. Today she woke up at 0700, last night she went to bed close to 8. The latest I’ll let her sleep is 0700, my goal wake up time is 0630 but the last 2 days she has been waking at closer 0630/0645. So I thought 7 wasn’t such a stretch. Did I let her sleep too late?

Her first bottle was 0730 and I noticed she was starting to get a little drowsy so I stopped the feed repositioned, silly faces and continued. At 0800 ish I noticed eye rubbing and I told my husband look I think she is getting tired already, but we kind of thought she might just be bored and needed a change of scene and took her for a 20 ish minute walk. He said (yes I’m tattling) don’t rely on that too much what if she is just bored? We got home at around 0845 and I didn’t notice her having obvious tired signs so to wind down we did a little bit of playing with blocks and circle donut things. I changed her diaper and I noticed she got more fussy thank normal so I stated to get concerned I missed her sleep cues earlier.

To help her calm down we went into the loft to pet the cat and continue to wind down after diaper fussing. Then it was 0907 and I walked her into the room and finished setting it up for nap and saying one of our chants “it’s nap time” etc and she started wailing turning away kicking legs everywhere SCREAMING. Do you think we missed her 0800 ish sleep cues or do you think maybe she wasn’t tired enough?

I’m so confused I feel like I’m always a day late and a dollar short on getting her a successful nap. Which spirals into the remainder of the day over and over.

I had to take her to another location in the house to reset and try again; we walked back into the room for nap time at around 0915 she finally fell asleep at 0927 with bouncing/squatting motion she was so upset the usual rocking wasn’t working. Once she was more calm I patted and shushed her in my arms standing still and now she is napping on mattress mommy.

Thank you for addressing this instance because I feel like getting her to nap is a very nuanced issue and it does have a domino effect on everything else. I’ll. Try to achieve a 2 hr 45 ish minute wake window after this nap depending on how long she actually naps for and continue as recommended.

Thank you sooooo much

[Holly Doerges]

Yes you are correct about the timing you were clarifying for wake up times at night. She is relatively fussy in the day as well could be from lack of sleep or teething? Both?

I have been giving her a small bottle, ibuprofen and sometimes baby orajel when she wakes up at the 2 am time and that helps her go back to sleep until 4 am the last 2 nights. Tonight I’ll try another small bottle at 4 am to see if we can get her to go back to sleep in her crib.

What’s her current nap schedule? (How many naps and how long?)

Her nap schedule is taking three naps a day. I can’t fit a fourth nap in or she simply won’t take one. Her first nap is at about 8:15 to 8:30 AM until approximately 9 AM. Her second nap is usually from 1130 until wake up anywhere from 30 minutes to 70 minutes this nap is usually a contact nap and her longest nap of the day. her third nap usually happens around 2:30 to 330 depending on the previous wake up time and only last 30 to 40 minutes then she usually wakes up at around 3:30 to 4 from her last nap leaving bedtime at approximately 6 to 6:30 PM, however she has been taking shorter naps leaving bedtime closer to 6 PM.

Basically

0600 Wake

0815(ish) nap for 40 minutes on average

0855 (0900) wake up

1120ish asleep

1230 ish awake this is the contact nap

1500 ish (1500-1530) asleep

1545-1555 awake depending on the time she actually fell asleep, occasionally she wakes up as early as 1530 if she falls asleep at 1500,

And if she falls asleep closer to 1530 then wake up at 1600.

Then to bed depending on last wake up I try to give her 2.5 hrs before actual sleep time starting routine 30 minutes before.

If she woke up at 1600, then I would start bed time routine at 1800 and (hopefully) eyes closed by 1830.

Is her wake-up time still consistent? What time?

Yes her wake up time is around 0545- 0600.

What time is her usual bedtime?

Bed time has been between 1800-1830

How are you settling her for naps and bedtime now?

I was trying to set down drowsy but awake and it seemed to be very upsetting (possibly due to teething discomfort) I have been putting her to sleep by holding her and some gentle rocking I have to wait until she is asleep then set her down. Sometimes I have to hold her while sitting in the chase in my room so she is in a deeper sleep then put her in the crib otherwise she will wake up immediately.

Has anything else changed?

crawling/standing?)

She has been standing more but she started standing at least 2 weeks ago, and practicing it for longer. She is much better at it now though and I would say has mastered the skill of standing. And we do try new foods about every 3 days but I haven’t noticed any serious reactions or issues related to foods. Her formula is the same.

Again thank you!!

• This reply was modified 1 year, 1 month ago by  Holly Doerges.
• This reply was modified 1 year, 1 month ago by  Holly Doerges.

[Holly Doerges]

I notice that my daughter is getting really upset with me when we even walk in to the room for nap time and bed time. She will scream and cry is so difficult to settle and will even turn her back to me completely when I’m trying to calm her. It’s heartbreaking and so difficult. My husband happened to be home and put her down for a nap without a fight and she slept for 1.5 hrs. Which I was glad for but also makes me feel like all the work and difficult learning curve has made her really upset with me or develop a negative association with me and sleep. I’m home alone a lot because my husband works nights. And tonight she woke up at 0100 I attempted to place her in her crib 3 times and after the third attempt she began screaming and crying turning her back to me I couldn’t even sit down until 230 am, she kept screaming and pushing away from me when I tried to sit. I’m so confused and my arms and wrists hurt, I don’t know if there is anything I should do differently.

I’m terrified to try and put her back into her crib.

Thank you for the continued support, you are more helpful than her pediatrician. I appreciate your time.and expertise, thank you!!

Holly

[Holly Doerges]

Wow thank you, it seems like common sense, but it isn’t. I’m so glad to report that after tweaking things a little and relying more on using shushing and patting in crib my little cutie slept the whole night!! No wake at 3 am I’m so impressed. Still having nap troubles maybe from her getting so sleepy during feeding. I will try as suggested!! Thank you so much you are a life saver!!

Holly

[Holly Doerges]

Yes thank you so much,

I’ll try the feeding at the 3-4 am wake up. And see if that has any effect on her waking up and going back down.

Also, last puzzle piece, I notice my baby gets so tired after eating, and can get that crazy baby mania then it’s all down hill. I think it’s because she wakes up tired from her nap, has a feed, which makes her sleepy again. Stays awake and gets manic, then won’t settle very easily or at all. My baby is mainly bottle fed with either breast milk or formula. (Lately I haven’t had any time to pump due to my baby’s erratic sleeping behavior and trying to take care of a home while pumping between 30 minute naps is impossible to sustain.)

However, I’m afraid that her prior newborn feeding and sleeping association has not fully disappeared. Do you think this could be impacting her sleep as well?

Thank you for your plan for the nap and sleep routine. Everything feels so messy and stressful with her sleeping. I am so grateful for your time and input.

Thank you!!

Holly!

[Holly Doerges]

1. Based on your description of her sleep routine, it sounds like either you or your husband are currently holding her until she falls asleep (which makes total sense for where she’s at right now!). I’m just wondering—after you finish singing her nap song, are you walking her around the room, rocking or patting her, or standing still while she falls asleep? Reply: I will usually walk around the room a little bit, barely rocking her sometimes she is completely still in my arms but I will walk.
2. Also, when you’re holding her, is she lying down horizontally in your arms or upright against your chest? I have her upright vertical then I transition her to horizontal before going into the crib other wise I would t be able to get her in I’m too short to clear her feet over the rail of her crib.
3. Once she’s asleep, you’re laying her into the crib—and at that point she wakes up. Then you’re stepping out of the room for a few minutes to see if she’ll resettle on her own. Is that right? That is correct
4. Has she learned how to roll over yet? Yes she rolls, she can now pull herself up to standing on her knees so we had to lower her crib already. She learned army crawl at the end of her 4th month. Crazy baby (hehe)
5. From what you’ve mentioned so far, it doesn’t sound like she’s using a pacifier—I just wanted to double-check that? No I almost wish she would, she plays with them bites them and tries to get me to use them but won’t suck on one. However, she constantly wants to suck on fabric which is really difficult to keep her from doing she always tries to suck on my shirt. I used to let her have it but I think it disrupted her more so I remove it from her grasp now. I think she used to wake up looking for it.
6. It sounds like you’re following a wake–feed–play–sleep routine during the day—is that right?that is correct
7. During her awake times, does she generally seem happy and contentwhile playing with you, or would you describe her as being unsettled most of the time? I am just trying to rule out if there are any underlying reasons for her discomfort at sleep time. Totally understandable, she is a happy little baby she enjoys playing and crawling she finally learned how to crawl on all fours in addition to her army crawl so she is very active and loves tummy time.
8. From what you’ve described, it sounds like she’s getting about 4–5 naps per day. Could you let me know how long she typically manages to stay awake between naps? Is she able to handle a 2-hour wake window, or is it shorter? Her first morning wake window is about 1 hr and 45-50 minutes (sometimes 2 hrs) the rest of the day we are just about 2 hr mark. If she took a 45 minute nap she can go for about 2 hrs and if she only took a 30 minute nap no longer than 2 hours, closer to 1 hr and 50 minutes. She usually gets 4 naps a day then bed time. I have been trying to get her naps consolidated so the last 3 days I’ve been having a contact nap either the first or second nap to get her to extend her nap and it’s throwing off bed time but she is having 3 naps for the last 3 days. Also she was able to make 2.5 hrs to bed time tonight without getting overtired and a cortisol high. Her total nap time today was 2 hr 40 min.
9. You mentioned bedtime is usually somewhere between 6:30 PM and 7:30 PM. Does the timing of her bedtime vary based on when her final nap of the day ends? Yes that is correct.
10. It sounds like she eventually falls asleep around 8:00 PM. From the time you start the bedtime routine at 6:30–7:30 PM until she actually falls asleep, are you staying in the bedroom, settling her(holding her, putting her down, picking her up again, etc.) the whole time? I’ll start the bed time routine, and she will fall asleep, I’ll put her down and leave the room. I’ll watch her on the camera, she usually cries and I’ll give her about 5 minutes to settle or less if she is screaming crying or being very unsettled. Then I’ll go in the room and begin the pyramid, she hates being patted and shushed in the crib though when she is really upset. So usually I end up picking her up and starting with the bed time song walking and holding her vertical until she falls asleep again. On really bad nights this cycle can go on up to 8pm with PUPD. On good nights I PUPD only 1 time after the initial (like this last night)
11. Does she wake overnight for feeds? If so, around what times does she typically wake up? I’m assuming the 3:00–4:00 AM wake-up is for a feed? No I do not feed her overnight anymore. She did have a few issues about 4 weeks ago we thought she had an ear infection (turns out it was teething), gave antibiotics and she ended up with diarrhea so I was giving her a small feed over night then to ensure hydration but it’s been about 2 weeks (or a little more) that we are back to no over night feeds.
12. When she wakes overnight, have you been able to follow the wake–feed–sleep routine? Is the bedroom kept darkduring overnight wakes? Also, if she wakes at times other than 3:00–4:00 AM, are you able to lay her back down in the crib after feeding or settling? Yes I keep the room dark there is a dim night light so I don’t break my neck trying to find the crib. But no lights are turned on nothing changes. I’m actually writing back to you after she woke up at 0240 am today. I watched her in the crib crawl around stick her limbs out of the crib pull them back in crawl around whine and lightly cry for about 20 minutes before intervening due to her actually starting to cry around 3 am. It took 30 minutes for her to fall asleep, I tried giving her the pacifier and she just bites it plays with it tries to stick it in my mouth, and finally tries to suck on my shirt at the neck line. She had an early bed time because of nap ending at 330 pm (so 6 pm bed time unfortunately). I was surprised that we went back into her crib she usually starts crying the second I put her down and I have to start resettling her and end up holding her the rest of the morning so she gets sleep. I just can’t take it anymore and have to start work again soon I’m afraid what will happen if I’m getting ready for work at 5 am and she won’t sleep in her crib. So usually she does not resettle but today she did.

• Thank you so much for your time. I cannot tell you how much it means to me to have feed back, even to clarify the situation. I am so grateful. I hope I’ve given you something more useful to work with. I’m more than happy to try what you suggest and look forward to hearing back. Thank you

[Holly Doerges]

Hi Emma,

I have tried as suggested to essentially mix the order up of the sleep routine and to put her sleeping bag on outside of the room etc. that has seemed to help with immediately crying and fighting while just walking in the room so that’s good. However, after a few days (or maybe a week?) things started ramping up. For a few days she would go to sleep in her crib during night, but wake up almost every hour from her falling asleep time. She doesn’t just fuss and cry, she screams and stands in her crib, and yells and screams some more unless she is picked up. For at least 2 nights she has screamed herself hoarse. I would pick her up until calm and place her in the crib drowsy but still awake or barely asleep (sometimes it’s hard to tell at night) I would only hold her for 2-4 minutes. Which is about the time it takes for her to calm. Sometimes she won’t calm for close to 40 minutes which is brutal. Then I would set her back in the crib and about 30-60 minutes later the cycle starts all over again. Then, almost like clock work at 2-3 am she wakes up and won’t go back into her crib if she is set down she wakes up flips onto her tummy and starts crying and screaming.

I tried feeding her at this time with little to no success. Once she went back into the crib for 2 hrs after her feeding, the wake up at 4-5 am and had to sit up and hold her until 630 ish anyways. She once drank close to 30 ml, just played with the bottle, and wouldn’t go in her crib. The other time she woke back up after an hour so I’m not sure if she is waking because of hunger or not. Maybe I will reintroduce a bottle tonight to see if it helps at all.

My husband thinks she is teething (I am not convinced) I keep looking for redness on her gums I don’t see anything but it is hard to check. I use my finger to feel for lumps and I do feel some smooth bumps on her bottom right and left, towards the back (she already has her two bottom front teeth) but I’m not sure if that is the culprit. When she was teething last time her behavior was similar to what we are seeing now, but actually a little less intense.

She is 7 months old now and I’m afraid she is going to sleep like this forever. A few times I’ve been so desperate I’ll just nurse her to calm her down and I barely have any milk supply so there is probably only 30 ml available so I think she is seeking comfort. She will calm and go to sleep after and most of the time sleep in her crib (to wake up after maybe 2 hrs and sometimes still resists the crib) but I don’t want this to be habitual for her either. In the case that she is teething and having developmental milestone setbacks is there anything else you would recommend? Or recommend staying away from? Sorry if I leave you with more questions than information to work with and sincerely thank you for your time.

Thank you,

Holly